Occupational Hazards

[black fair]

On the street Iraqis now commonly refer to Saddams regime as the "previous regime" its been reported. And then yesterday, we hear this:
A photo from [the] TV shows an Iraqi prisoner with a hood over his head, standing on a box and with wires connected to his hands. Photo: Sky News.

The news show said that, according to the army, he had been told that if he fell off the box he would be electrocuted. Other photographs show male prisoners positioned to simulate sex with each other.
"The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners," a transcript said.

"And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing or giving the camera a thumbs-up."

The program's producers said the army also had photographs showing a detainee with wires attached to his genitals and another that showed a dog attacking a prisoner.

The photographs were taken inside Abu Ghraib prison, near Baghdad, where US forces have been holding hundreds of Iraqis.

Out with the old, in with the new.

two photos can be seen accompanying the article here:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html

the naked human pyramid is particular despicable.

[CRO]

i picked up the paper today and saw it. Wasnt at all shocked though. You se, in war, you capture your enemies and of course your going to be slightly pissed off that they were trying to kill you. Though, i wouldnt torture them. These kids will probably get off with a light sentence when in fact their balls should be chopped off

[Titan]

which kids?

[Corsair]

lol gee i wonder why the american soldiers might be slightly pissed off after capturing these people?

torture and abuse is a breach of the geneva convention. Then again so is wearing your wife and children as a bulletproof vest, so it probably balances out.

[[BiP]-B4]

This is just what the USA needs.

[CRO]

which kids?

The kids fighing for the United states.

You should know the average age of a US soldier in Iraq, they are still practically children

[Beef_Taco]

wtf...i find this utterly disturbing. They have them locked up ffs, now they are just being pathetic, stripping them down and humiliating them. I saw it on the news last night...was quite disturbed

[blitzen]

complete and utter scum

lol gee i wonder why the american soldiers might be slightly pissed off after capturing these people?

its so easy to justify torture when the americans are the ones dishing it out isnt it.

[CRO]

complete and utter scum



its so easy to justify torture when the americans are the ones dishing it out isnt it.


100% agree. A picture of an American soldier being tortured would get a completely different response from him. Its just not cricket Corsy.

Though, the Iraqis would have more of a reason to torture the Americans as they DID invade their country and murder thousands of CIVILIANS

[Fatso]

I just think back to outcry of the US when pictures of a few of their captured were shown on Al-Jazeera, and they were being treated well. These are the kinds of pictures that breach the Geneva Convention. It is easy to hide behind the excuse that it is an isolated few people, but the attitudes to the iraqis seem to be part of a wider pattern of disrespect. The forces in Iraq are representatives of the US and as such bound by the conventions that the US are signatories to, not to mention common bloody decency.

[Corsair]

100% agree. A picture of an American soldier being tortured would get a completely different response from him. Its just not cricket Corsy.

Though, the Iraqis would have more of a reason to torture the Americans as they DID invade their country and murder thousands of CIVILIANSno it wouldn't cro

I think both would be as terrible as the other.

But news flash guys: this is a war, and not only is it a war but it's a completely ruthless one at that. When you saw Iraqi's killing your comrades while hiding behind civilians; when you were under attack by the people who are supposed to be on your side; and when you are being attacked by the people you liberated from someone that had no compunction with murdering them outright; when you saw your own prisoners tortured and treated brutally, maybe you'd say "**** the geneva convention" as well?

it's not the average grunt's fault that the Iraqi's have been "invaded" or anything else, but if they aren't going to follow the rules of war, why should anyone else?

Take a look at WW2 and the way the Australian troops treated the Japs (after what the Japs were doing to us of course). That was outright murder, yet no one holds it against the Australian soldiers because of the situation, and because of what they were subjected to....oh and because they were Australian of course.

Get some perspective, the days of romantic, "civilised" warfare ended with Napoleon. The Iraqis may have more reason to do this (as though there can be a right way to torture someone), but when you're a soldier on either side and your mates are getting slaughtered, wouldn't you be a bit pissed? If i'm more sympathetic to the allied forces as a whole, it's because I have very little sympathy for the middle east in the first place, and because of the fact we have troops over there as well.

[Fatso]

The Geneva convention applies to all combatants for the signatory country. This is not a romantisied fantasy of war, rather it is international law, or is the occuping forces above that now.

The japanese guards that broke international law got put before war crimes tribunals and shot.

[Fatso]

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva
from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
entry into force 21 October 1950 (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 12

Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.
Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited
Article 14

Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour

[Idol]

i hope the soilders responsible will get jail time....if ur angry...fair enough...go out to the many battle zones and shoot sum guys...if beating up tied up men and taking fotos makes u feel better than ur head is ****ed up

Guantamino bay is already a violation of the geneva convention...

then again....US r above the UN and the international community

[Nightwatchman]

you guys realise that these guys are not technically prisoners of war.

they are not allied to any state or fighting in the name of any government so they aren't technically a 'prisoner of war'

the geneva convention protecting prisoners of war doens't apply here. as strange as that may sound.

[Fatso]

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Out of the definitions of the convention, I think they can claim protection by the convention. The convention allows for the protection of organised and spontaneous militias as well.

[Fatso]

Article 5

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

An just in case we don't actually know if they are covered or not, have they had their day in front of the tribunal.

[Fatso]

Troops have been abusing Iraqis for a year: Amnesty (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/04/1083635134533.html)

Amnesty issued a disturbing report on Iraq last month detailing allegations of torture and ill-treatment by US and British forces in Iraq that are remarkably similar to the evidence that has now surfaced. But its report indicates that the abuses began when US-led coalition forces gained control of Iraq in April last year and took place throughout the country.

The report found at least four detainees have died in British military custody, and in one case the cause of death was torture. The report referred to a hearing in February into the death of an Iraqi at a detention centre in Nasiriyah, where a former US marine testified it was common practice "to kick and punch prisoners who did not co-operate, and even some who did".

That hearing involved the death of a former Baath party official who was beaten and choked by a US marine reservist.

The Amnesty report also noted that thousands of Iraqis had been arrested without charge and many held indefinitely as "suspected terrorists" or "security" detainees.

Amnesty repeated its call for an independent inquiry, saying the abuses were more widespread than acknowledged and included the still unexplained deaths of two prisoners under interrogation in Afghanistan.

"The problem seems to extend beyond one prison and one theatre," said its Washington spokesman, Alistair Hodgett.

[Fatso]

An empire in moral crisis (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083224655715.html)

The war of images between good and evil has swung against the Americans for the first time. Passionate believers in the benefit of ridding Iraq of the despotic regime, such as myself, are appalled by the image of gun-happy US military tourists treating ‘lesser breeds’ like this. Voters from the mainstream don’t expect unsullied heroes in our military forces. But they do expect self-restraint and common sense judgment. Professionalism is not a luxury but a benchmark standard.

[Fatso]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/08/1083911443001.html

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld took responsibility today for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops and offered his "deepest apology" to the victims, but said he would not resign just to satisfy his political enemies.

"These events occurred on my watch as secretary of defence. I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility," Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Warning that he had seen new photographs and a videotape not yet made public that were hard to believe, Rumsfeld said: "I feel terrible about what happened to these detainees. They are human beings, they were in US custody, our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. That was wrong.

The fallout continues, I reckon this might cost Rumsfeld his job if he has the balls to take it like a man.

[chriz]

i think it's just stupid because America took the moral high ground in the war against Iraq
and look at what they're doing.

who can police america? no one

[Titan]

You shouldn't let the actions of a tiny amount reflect 130,000 that are doing their job properly.

[black fair]

and you shouldn't pretend these are the actions of a tiny amount, nor that the response to the actions by this "tiny amount" from the "rest of the amount" was addequate.

[Fatso]

These tiny few were potentially following directives from above to "soften" up the prisoners for interrogation. If this is the case, then the problem with a "tiny few" becomes a systemic issue with the dealing with prisoners of war.

[Fatso]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/08/1083911448191.html
The newspaper said military police officer Sabrina Harman, who was stationed at Abu Ghraib prison, said in interviews she was assigned to break down prisoners for interrogation.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed," Harman was quoted as saying in the interviews by email this week from Baghdad.

"The job of the MP was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk."

She said her military police unit took direction from the military intelligence officers in charge of the facility and from civilian contractors there who conducted interrogations, according to The Post

I kinda wonder why civillian contractors are being used for interrogations and if this is something to circumvent the US responsibilities in the dealing with prisoners.

[Titan]

of course...
and you shouldn't pretend these are the actions of a tiny amount
im not pretending...

lets just say 25 people. Which is probably more than were involved.

Divide that by roughly 135000.

1.8518518518518518518518518518519e-4

thats a tiny amount.

now i agree with fatso... he isn't trying to demonise here.

[Fatso]

Some excerpts from the The Lehrer Hour interview are just chilling:

Q: "Well, Hisham, the photos have had a few days to soak down into the various information channels in the Arab world. What's been the reaction?"

Hisham Melhem: "They were shocked, stunned, that these abuses were occurring and that the Americans were the perpetrators. The irony that these abuses were taking place in Abu Ghraib, the most notorious prison during Saddam's regime, a facility that should have been razed to the ground, these abuses were taking place in that most notorious jail.

"Also, the irony, now that the excuse of weapons of mass destruction no longer holds, we have a President who is telling the rest of the world, wrapping himself with a moral cloak, telling the world we came to Iraq to build a new Iraq.

"If you wanted to write a script as to how to undermine the credibility of the US in the Middle East today, you couldn't have done a better job. I thought last month, with the incredible violence in Iraq, with President Bush's embrace of Ariel Sharon, that America's credibility reached its nadir. I think I'm mistaken. I think one could argue now that if you have any illusions about winning hearts and minds in Iraq, and the Arab world for that matter, forget it."

Q: "You mean like, game over?"

Melham: "I think so. People wonder, how come there was no strong explicit condemnation? I mean, I would have expected a strong denunciation - this is not what America stands for, this is not why we came to Iraq, the people responsible will be punished, there will be Iraqi judges watching the procedures. None of this, none. How come the President did not take to the air and say these things to the Iraqis, first and foremost? Today the Iraqis, for the first time, saw it on their own media. Sometimes I wonder, the people in Washington have no clue as to what their policies are doing in the Arab and Muslim world."

So is abuse by US troops in Iraq a common occurrence?

Hersh told the program: "One of the things the general [Taguba] says in his report is, 'You have a systemic problem.' What his report is saying is, essentially, folks, what you saw was unusual in that it was photographed. But that's what's going on, that's what's happening [all the time]. He makes note it started in Afghanistan, this kind of abuse. So what you're seeing is the result of a decision somewhere up high in the line that we're going to turn our prisons, all of them, essentially into Guantanamos. They're all going to become factories to elicit intelligence ...

"These detainees are civilians. Over 60 per cent of people in [Abu Ghraib] were just swept up in random roadside checks. There was no rationale to the process. What you had was an institutionalised system where the military's needs and requirements drove the process. And a major component of the intelligence process were civilian contractors hired by the US Government, people not responsible under the uniform code of military justice, who can't be reached by any American laws because they're not in America. So they're the, you know, if you want to whack, they're the whackers."

Hersh did not mean across the knuckles.

Something else I just found I'll try to bold the parts I find most disturbing.

I find it very disturbing, the whole issue. I think they are going to court marshall a few little fish and say they fixed it when the issue is much bigger.

One of the disturbing things as well is the politicians see this as bad PR rather than appalling human rights abuse.

We, as a country, hung up our pennant with these people in this action and we are being dragged along for the whole bloody ride. We will be tarnished with this too, regardless of whether our individuals are involved or not. That's what you get for being in the Coalition of the Willing. Willing to invade, Willing to occupy, Willing to ignore human rights.

I hope the second rate free trade agreement was worth the price.

[black fair]

I'm trying to demonise? no I'm not. you're trying to pretend this is about 25 people out of 135,000 and it simply isn't. do I need to go quote every news report? these are systematic and wide spread abuses throughout the chain of command titan. at least, that was the finding of the military investigation carried out months ago.

or maybe thats just the military demonising itself?

[Fatso]

I think these comments by G.W. Bush now become relevant.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/07/20020719.html
THE PRESIDENT: As we prepare our military for action, we will protect our military from international courts and committees with agendas of their own.

AUDIENCE: Hooah.

THE PRESIDENT: You might have heard about a treaty that would place American troops under the jurisdiction of something called the International Criminal Court. The United States cooperates with many other nations to keep the peace, but we will not submit American troops to prosecutors and judges whose jurisdiction we do not accept.

AUDIENCE: Hooah. (Applause.)

[black fair]

the soldier are still subject to military discipline at least. those private contractors aren't. that military report that was completed back in january/february strongly recommended the immediate removal of one of they ky private contractors orchestrating abuses in abu gharib. he's still working there.

[black fair]

sorry fatso, I made a bunch of comments each right after the stuff you quoted, first of the fact that the taguba report from months ago refers to how widespread this was, that it wasn't the actions of a few out of the eyes of the rest, like titan pretends. then you had the bit about how the private contractors aren't able to be prosecuted and I repeated that as well. oops :D

here is some more stuff:

firstly a new york times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08PRIS.html?hp) about how these abuses reflect the ones in america, and the connections between the two sytems:
The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree during much of the time President Bush was governor because of crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other inmates as slaves for sex.

The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld testified under oath before congress today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3694995.stm):
I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in US custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. And that was wrong.

So to those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of the US armed forces, I offer my deepest apology.

It was inconsistent with the values of our nation. It was inconsistent of the teachings of the military to the men and women of the armed forces. And it was certainly fundamentally un-American...

I failed to recognise how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress...

I'm seeking a way to provide appropriate compensation to those detainees who suffered such grievous and brutal abuse and cruelty...

Beyond abuse of prisoners, there are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman...
apparently there are also videos...

now, from a UK Guardian artice (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html):
The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."
the fallout from this will be huge. this has been a monumental mistake on Americas behalf, thats why even while titan pretends its nothing, you have rumsfeld and bush going on tv apologising. you know they never apologise for anything right? they don't even admit mistakes. this is literally the first time the Bush administration has apologised for anything. which just shows its probably even worse than we already know.

those of us not pretending.

[black fair]

letter to the editor (http://www.pstripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21996) from a US MP in Baghdad:
Leadership gone bad

I have to say this stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq is an example of leadership gone really bad. I can?t believe for one second that those troops didn?t know what they were doing was wrong. Nor can I believe the command was not aware that it was occurring. It sure doesn?t help our cause here in Iraq or the perspective of our being humane and following the codes of conduct. It really angers me.

Of course this type of behavior has happened in past wars when prisoners were interrogated. But I believed we were above this level of abuse and maltreatment by now. Apparently this is not the case.

I remember when I was attached to a military police company while in the reserves years ago. We were given instructions as to the laws of prisoner treatment and the Geneva Conventions, as we continually do today. The 5 S?s ? secure, silence, segregate, safeguard, speed ? are taught to all MPs, and the Geneva Conventions laws of prisoner treatment are taught to all soldiers, military interrogators and civilians alike.

It really turns my stomach to think that I?m in the same Army as these people, let alone the same military occupational specialty, and at a level of leadership that allowed it to continue. To use ignorance as an excuse is totally lame. It?s shameful, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sgt. Kevin McCue
Military policeman
Baghdad

[CRO]

can you say pedo-rape.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them hard to believe.

There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. ... Its going to get a good deal more terrible, Im afraid.

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and acting inappropriately with a dead body.?

The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

[Idol]

does the alleged rape of young boys by iraqi soldiers justify the brutality of iraqi prisoners by american soldiers?

i think not........"if they do it, y can't we?" mentality is exactly why the geneva convention needs to be maintained

go after the ppl who did the crimes and use the full power of the international law to punish them

also if this was true "The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. " then y the **** didn't any US personnel help the boys?

[CRO]

does the alleged rape of young boys by iraqi soldiers justify the brutality of iraqi prisoners by american soldiers?


i dont get what your trying to say here. Try reading it again, you seem to be a bit off track on what happened

[Idol]

the way ur quote is designed it seems like

"blah blah we did bad stuff etc....
blah
blah
blah.....our soldiers suck
blah


O BTW

iraqis raped young boys"

[CRO]

um, i quoted it DIRECTLY from the news article, so i didint change a thing.

O BTW

iraqis raped young boys"

in a prison run by the Americans, who also videotaped it. Ultimately, its the prison officials responsibility.

[Idol]

in a prison run by the Americans, who also videotaped it. Ultimately, its the prison officials responsibility.

i misunderstood........

i thoguht it was the former iraqi guard (saddams men)

but neway.....even more disgusting that they allow it to happen within their prisons

how does the saying go?
sumthing like

"the one that watches the crime and does nothing is just as guilty as the one doing the crime"

[Fatso]

I think the one you're looking for is:
Evil prospers when good men do nothing

I don't know how we can retain any high moral ground when we, as the occupying force, take over and engage in similar activities as the regeme we have supposed to have "liberated" them from, particularly as the liberation was a second choice reason after the non existant WMD, this really can be seen from the average Iraqi's point of view as another second failed reason for the aggression and the expansion of empire is starting to look like the real reason.

I personally beleive now we should pull our forces, not to cut and run (I was favouring leaving them there to fulfil our responsibilities), but I think we should pull out to pull support from the current occupation and to put our support behind a truely multilateral occupation under a proper UN mandate. But that would involve our leadership showing some balls.

[Fatso]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/10/1084041298612.html

US magazines published graphic new reports of Iraqi prison abuses, including a photo showing a naked prisoner cowering under threat from two US military dogs and witness accounts of beatings and rape.

The New Yorker magazine, which was among the first to publish photos that have caused an international scandal, showed the man cowering from the dogs and said other photos existed from the same scene, showing the prisoner on the floor with blood pouring from a wound.

The new picture is accompanied by an article which said Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and top military officers sought to keep the prison abuse scandal quiet for several months.

More photos released.

[black fair]

Here's (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2) the newyorker article that your link refers to Fatso:
The photographing of prisoners, both in Afghanistan and in Iraq, seems to have been not random but, rather, part of the dehumanizing interrogation process. The Times published an interview last week with Hayder Sabbar Abd, who claimed, convincingly, to be one of the mistreated Iraqi prisoners in the Abu Ghraib photographs. Abd told Ian Fisher, the Times reporter, that his ordeal had been recorded, almost constantly, by cameras, which added to his humiliation. He remembered how the camera flashed repeatedly as soldiers told to him to masturbate and beat him when he refused.

As has been said before, this is all taking place at Abu Ghraib, one of the most notoriusly vile prisons of Sadams reign. Rather than bulldoze the scene of countless war crimes to the ground, the American forces re-opened it.

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."
--President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala Oct. 8, 2003

"One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms.
--Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, Jan. 12, 2004

Not so. The investigations have shown that these acts of rape, tortue and abuse were occuring at the time of Bush's statements. Like I said, the fallout from this will be huge, in a War based on supposedly moral ideals the contrast with the actual result is horrific.

The farce continues though, they've sent someone to clean up Abu Ghraib. They've sent the head of Guantanamo Bay. can you believe that? the Head of Guantanamo Bay is going to clean up the torture and abuse. What a joke, its those exact same storie that have been told by ex-guantanmo bay prisoners.

I never supported the war, so the complete breakdown of the occupation is not a suprise, its just depressing. but if you supported the war, how can you continue to support the way its been conducted?

Dissension Grows In Senior Ranks On War Strategy (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11227-2004May8.html):
Deep divisions are emerging at the top of the U.S. military over the course of the occupation of Iraq, with some senior officers beginning to say that the United States faces the prospect of casualties for years without achieving its goal of establishing a free and democratic Iraq.

Army Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, who spent much of the year in western Iraq, said he believes that at the tactical level at which fighting occurs, the U.S. military is still winning. But when asked whether he believes the United States is losing, he said, "I think strategically, we are."

I lost my brother in Vietnam," [said Colonel Paul] Hughes, a veteran Army strategist who is involved in formulating Iraq policy. "I promised myself, when I came on active duty, that I would do everything in my power to prevent that [sort of strategic loss] from happening again. Here I am, 30 years later, thinking we will win every fight and lose the war, because we don't understand the war we're in."

....A senior general at the Pentagon said he believes the United States is already on the road to defeat. "It is doubtful we can go on much longer like this," he said. "The American people may not stand for it -- and they should not."

Asked who was to blame, this general pointed directly at Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz. "I do not believe we had a clearly defined war strategy, end state and exit strategy before we commenced our invasion," he said.

[Calis]

I really do hope that Bush and all his administrators get whats coming to them in regards to this war. Its just a shame that no other country can do ANYTHING to the U.S in terms of pressure, so therefore it only comes down to the american people. And from what ive seen on various american television programs, they seem to have great pride in their "liberation" of Iraq.... It would be great if someone did speak up to Bush and the U.S and say "look, you are just as bad as the regime you apparently ousted."

But what country has the balls to speak up when Bush will just invade them on the suspicion of Weapons of Mass destruction....They dont need U.N approval...they do what they like...

[Misguided]

Im gonna date an american, that way i can get some back

[Misguided]

Im gonna date an american, that way i can get some back


I get to invade an American, and an american will finally find a WMD's

[Fatso]

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/05/04/550_moir.jpg

[black fair]

So the Taguba report (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/) right, released at the start of this year, was a 56 page report into the abuses in Abu Ghraib, which noted that the international red cross had been prevented access, contrary to international law, to certain areas of the prisons. Never-the-less, this Wall Street Journal article (http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB108414473392906282,00.html?mod=home_whats_new s_us) notes that:
Even before the war in Iraq ended a year ago, and well before U.S. officials have generally acknowledged it, the [International Committee of the] Red Cross began periodically lodging complaints about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners in allied custody, according to a confidential report by the organization.

....A meeting with the [ICRC] political adviser to the senior British commander in Qatar appears to have brought quick results. It "had the immediate effect [of stopping] the systematic use of hoods and flexi-cuffs in the interrogation section of Umm Qasr," according to the ICRC report, which details the results of its inspections in Iraq.

But during the next year, the ICRC encountered far more resistance when it raised concerns about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, especially those in the custody of military intelligence, the report says. The U.S. military was sometimes slow to respond to Red Cross complaints and ignored them in a few cases.

The red cross report is here in pdf (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/News/International%20News/Mideast%20and%20N.%20Africa/Iraq%20conflict/Red%20Cross%20report.pdf). Kevin Drum of www.washingtonmonthly.com highlighted a few sections:
7. Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of poper supervision of battle group units.
So thats 70%-90% of the total prisoners were innocent. We don't know what the percentages were for the slice of the total prisoners who were abused. But they also note that abuses weren't confined to the ones we've seen in the jails, but that there were also battlefield abuses by improperly commanded combat units.
In certain cases, such as in Abu Ghraib military intelligence section, methods of physical and psychological coercion used by interrogators appeared to be part of the standard operating procedures by military intelligence personnel to obtain confessions and extract information.
Kevin Drums article (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com) also has a section which lists the various abuses, but is too long for me too type out.

The red cross report is just further indication that these abuses were "part of the process" and not confined to the math that titan expressed of 25 out of 135,000.

These reports have been around for over a year.

[Idol]

oh the irony

in reference to the apparent beheading of a US citizen in iraq

sum US senetor

"This outlines the difference between how we do business and how they do business"

another said sumthing like
"They have no respect for humanity"

[Fatso]

President Bush is saying that all those responsible must be punished, I wonder if he'll want to follow it all the way up?

Rumsfeld approved interrogation methods: report (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/16/1084646057396.html)
May 16, 2004

The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq and ultimately led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker has reported.

Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan for gathering intelligence on members of al-Qaeda, which the United States blames for the September 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.

In the light of the use of these techniques in Afghanistan, I wonder if there'll be any investigation into abuse there? I know there's been reports into deaths in custody there where people have died of blunt trauma to the lower extremities (bashed in the legs until dead).